THE ARCHERS EDGE.NET FORUM :: Weapon of Choice :: Shop talk: Equipment, Tips, and Tricks :: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 Page 1 2 »     Author Topic: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 (Read 326 times) BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Thread Started on Sept 12, 2007, 3:05pm » http://www.firenock.com/index.html I used my first lighted nock two years ago when the Burnt Coyote first became popular. I thought it was pretty cool but too expensive to justify it's use as I personally didn't see how a lighted nock could serve to enhance my bows performance Well....I got one anyway (gotta have them toys ) and on the first field shot I got the reason for justifying an illuminated nock. SORT OF I had a yearling step out at 50 yards and since the scenario was so perfect , I took the shot. The eye's are fine when it comes to seeing the deer and they are fine when it comes to seeing the sight but when we start talking about the arrow....50 yards is impossible. Heck....30 yards ain't easy and I am not making the flight of an arrow my priority as it pertains to impact.....that just causes issues with proper form So when I took this shot I was going on belief of area as to impact....I wasn't going to see it.....right? Wrong! The illuminated neck caught my eye without my having to look for it and I saw exactly where it impacted as it disappeared into the lower chest cavity First advantage : I knew my shot location and therefore knew what I could do next which was to get out of the stand and go get my deer. That's a big advantage If the shot hadn't gone correctly I would have been equally as notified as to the need to sit tight or sneak out. The pass through had gone into the worst thicket of briar's on the property I would have left a golden arrow in that prickly hell hole and I figured as long as I could see the arrow , I could confirm the blood and move on , I could justify that loss Now I was really glad that I had this lighted nock No way I would want to have to find anything in there BUT...... When I got to the briers there was no light and no visible arrow So....in I went , got cut up in the process and about a 1/2 hour later I found my arrow. It had indeed been close enough to the outside of that brier patch that had I been able to see that arrow , I would not have had to enter or spend nearly as long as I had spent trying to find it. First disadvantage : on the pass through the nock had been shut off due to the nock being loosened by it's impact with the solid ground where it came to rest The deer was down in 30 yards so it was not an issue but that was my last illuminated nock There was alot to be said for the fact that I could identify my shot location but my biggest need was to find my arrow afterwards for inspection as to what was hit. Three weeks ago I was asked to try another illuminated nock system out which would not knock off (pardon the pun) on impact ____________________________________________________ First Impressions : Love the packaging! Easy to see and understand without having to buy the product. After opening and reading some of the information I found more to like in the fact that these nocks are sold as complete or partial systems which can be rebuilt rather than replaced each time the battery died. Very professional product line overall ____________________________________________________ Installation : First thing I want to know about any product is.....can it be used without directions? Why? ..... because I am a man....I don't read directions unless it is an absolute emergency! So.....could I have done it? .... maybe but I wouldn't recommend it. The instructions are easy enough to follow There is no experimentation needed and all tools are provided for correct assembly. Very nice Took about two minutes of reading to be ready to successfully install. ____________________________________________________ How it works : The activation of the Firenock is controlled by a magnet which can attach anywhere the nock will pass within 3/4" of. The manufacturer suggests placing the magnet in various area's depending on the rest used. Most of the drop out flipper type rests had their location indicated on the actual flipper which I do not like at all (I don't like anything that impinges the path of the arrow , even if it isn't going to be hit ) I found that by putting the magnet on the risers shelf or on the side of the riser (in most cases) there was plenty of room to stay within the 3/4" required for activation. I like the fact that I can play with product specifications and retain a working piece. ( accommodates those folks such as myself ) Since inertia is not required to activate the Firenock , it remains lit until the nock is passed back over the magnet which in turn deactivates the nock ____________________________________________________ « Last Edit: Sept 12, 2007, 8:39pm by BT » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #1 on Sept 12, 2007, 8:30pm » Continue : Phase #1 : I took our product to Site Partner Skipmaster for the first phase of testing because he has seen far more product of this sort than myself. Due to his overwhelming field experience , he was also the one that I wanted to get comments from as to how this Firenock measured up as to effectiveness for his hunting style as well as how it measured up against the burnt coyote , CX and tracer nock. The manufacturer had asked for us to do a few different tests but to be perfectly honest , some of these tests were not going to show us what we were most interested in as hunters or testers We did shoot the concrete block as requested but to be honest , neither of us saw that this reflects anything in the field and only goes to show how much stress the system can take. Be that as it may be ..... the Firenock did not fail this part of the test as it would withstand as much as the arrow itself could. That is to say that the receiver that keeps the nock from being driven to the head insert worked and we had no instance where the nock failed without the same failure within the arrow. When the arrow survived so did the nock and when the arrow failed the nock was gone ..... same as any nock. Now we were ready to get to the real life situations that did concern us. First was the effect comparative. In both our opinions , the Firenock was by far the brightest nock either of us had seen. The Picture shows about 50% of what I saw in front of me. Pictures are a great thing but I could just not find a perfect way to capture just what I was seeing As you can see....this is a very bright nock considering that it's an outdoors picture taken at 12:00 in the afternoon on a cloudless day. We shot the Firenock against the Burnt Coyote for comparison. The firenock was the only nock that we could clearly see from 30 yards but the camera was able to capture both well enough for a visual at 20 yards This is not a shootout so we are not showing every offering. The Burnt coyote was used as a comparison nock only because of it's popularity. Skipmaster then did some some long shots from ground level while Razortech and myself stood on an elevated platform and watched on. The tracer was much easier for me to follow than was the arrow but was not as bright from above as it was from behind the shooter. Just an observation .... I actually would just as well have less visibility from an angle of trajectory as opposed to line of trajectory. Less liability of spooking game that may be off to the side of the target animal. We get alot of multi shot opportunity's in this state and we have the tags to do so. No sense in spooking the second tag away So....the Firenock is impressive in a comparative sense when it comes to a visual and thats well and good but this is still not speaking to the issues I had , which concerns keeping the Nock lit after the shot. I wanted to concentrate on what happened to me and others I have know which was the fact that pass throughs can turn everything south on a seemingly good system. We first took a 5 gallon sealed water cask and shot it with a 80# Hoyt Vulcan using a CX400 shaft. The pressure of a sealed tank along with the rigidity of the containers shell seemed to best resemble the shock expected from a side impact on a whitetail sized animal. The first shot was done with a pass through into a foam backing in case anything failed. I would also mention that the shell is a very tight material and would have easily torn the nock out of the shaft as it passed through were it prone to do so. This shot was a success with the nock remaining fully in the shaft as well as remaining unaffected by the water throughout the rest of the 2 hour testing period. As you can see in the photo.....the container shell is very tight as pertains to the visible exit hole left by the CX400. Next step was to wrap the jug with a heavy leather and shoot it from an elevated position. The Nock remained lit which was no real surprise since any nock would have stayed on and although we did not get the pass through....the picture shows the nock off well enough to include it. The next shot was into the ground solidly and as expected , the Firenock remained on Above.....Rayzortech holds the arrow to mark the depth as to where the forward point entered into the ground. This was indicative of what we witness on normal pass throughs and what typically shuts nocks such as the burnt coyote off as the nock is Jarred backward on the sudden deceleration/impact. So far .... so very good Phase 2 will be an actual field situations test. Skipmaster and Rayzortech will be taking arrows equipped with the Firenock system into the Connecticut woods this coming weekend and then we will have as good a report as we can hope to make concerning this nock system. http://www.firenock.com/index.html « Last Edit: Sept 12, 2007, 8:54pm by skipmaster1 » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged tdickens58 Junior Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 106 Location: Haymarket, Virginia Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #2 on Sept 12, 2007, 8:55pm » I tried the Burnt Coyote last year with mixed results. Sometimes the nock would stay lit other times it would not. All in all I did not see it being reliable enough to be worth the expense. I hope the firenocks work better, but I'm not spending my money on them this year. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #3 on Sept 12, 2007, 8:59pm » Sept 12, 2007, 8:55pm, tdickens58 wrote: I tried the Burnt Coyote last year with mixed results. Sometimes the nock would stay lit other times it would not. All in all I did not see it being reliable enough to be worth the expense. I hope the firenocks work better, but I'm not spending my money on them this year. So far they have been flawless. One thing I do like is that once you have the kit it is only $10. to rebuild three nocks rather than throwing them out when the battery dies « Last Edit: Sept 12, 2007, 9:00pm by BT » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged skipmaster1 Active Partner member is offline Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,372 Location: Westchester,New York Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #4 on Sept 12, 2007, 9:01pm » They stay lit much better than the Burnt Coyote. that ground shot was shot out of a bow with 87#'s of KE into packed soil at 10yds. shots like that often knock out the Burnt coyote nocks I have used. these nocks did not flicker once. They always lit and stayed lit until turned off. Much easier to turn off as well. just wave it past the magnet instead of trying to wiggle the nock out. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged " At least my bow was a split limb WHEN I bought it, not after I got it home." royden Board Regular member is offline Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 302 Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #5 on Sept 12, 2007, 10:01pm » Well Bt sounds pretty good so far.... 2 or 3 questions How many shots is a battery good for? If someone put the magnet below the arrow on the shelf with a drop-away rest will there be any affect on flight (ie. porposing due to nock being pulled down)? How much weight difference? Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged skipmaster1 Active Partner member is offline Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 2,372 Location: Westchester,New York Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #6 on Sept 12, 2007, 10:12pm » I believe the battery is good for 24hrs of constant use. I had it on the bottom part of my ripcord rest just below the "prongs". they do warn to keep it away from your BH. I saw no difference in flight out to 45yds(the longest distace I really shot) the nocks are listed at 22 grains. all of the ones we used and the dummies weighed 26grains on my scale. My CX nock weighed 6grains. I could not see any diference in flight, the nice part is, if there is a small difference you can use the weighed nocks supplied for practice. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged " At least my bow was a split limb WHEN I bought it, not after I got it home." osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #7 on Sept 13, 2007, 6:53pm » Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: Weight issue I am sorry that I have not updated the packaging on weight of Firenock v2.0s. Firenock original use Korean battery that is 2.7 grain lighter than the extended life battery that is specifically made for Firenock with the extra groove. Due to early field testing, we have to increase the thickness of the PCB from 0.75 mm to 0.8 mm then to full 1.0 mm to handle those STRONG fingers of some of the users. They keep cracking the circuit board when they install the battery. We also have to increase the positive wire connector by 1.35 mm to help make the PCB 300% stiffer. Last we increase the diameter of the battery wire to 0.42 mm fom 0.325 mm. Which lead to that 3.5 grain total weight than what we have on the package. Form our QC dept, they confirm Firenock should be 25.2 to 25.7 grains. We have update our web site to that fact already. The next wave of package, it would state the more accurate of ~25 grains as its weight with the nock. « Last Edit: Sept 13, 2007, 9:21pm by osomemac » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 battery life « Reply #8 on Sept 13, 2007, 7:13pm » Firenock use a very special blend of Lithium battery, it has a shelf life of 100 months. If you take it on and off without exceeding one hour at a time, it can DOUBLE its continuous burn life to 48 hours. This is due to its ability to self-charge. The lithium polymer battery will react with the oxides in the system and do close to half recharge. This is why it is the only pin battery in the market with an epoxy seal under the negative pin (the battery shell is the positive for this type of battery). Not to mention we want it to be salt water proof to go with our bow fishing adaptor. By the way, if you have not seen Firenock action in salt water, you owe it to yourself to see it. www.firenock.com/videos.html As for magnet placement, Firenock is very specific; it is not just 3/4 of an inch away. It is 3/4 of an inch from the center of the arrow shaft to the bottom of the magnet. The magnet is 1/8" thick and the usual arrow is 0.246" in ID or 0.320" OD which mean the surface of the shaft to the top of the magnet is only about 12-13 mm of 3/8 of an inch. If that distance is not maintained, the constancy will suffer. Have fun, and smudge some blood on the nock « Last Edit: Sept 13, 2007, 7:23pm by osomemac » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #9 on Sept 13, 2007, 7:35pm » Sept 13, 2007, 7:13pm, osomemac wrote: Firenock use a very special blend of Lithium battery, it has a shelf life of 100 months. If you take it on and off without exceeding one hour at a time, it can DOUBLE its continuous burn life to 48 hours. This is a big advantage for someone like myself who looks at specs for the hidden value With a 100 month lifespan and a potential 48 hour run time this would mean that someone in a state such as Maine might not need to buy a system rebuild kit for 8 years Now something has to be wrong in the facts as opposed to the math....correct? What I mean to say is that mathematically , with a one deer limit each year and a 1 hour recovery time , the potential to exceed the batteries storage life would come faster than the batteries usage life span It seems to me that there is likely a shortening of storage life as usage continues. What can an average user expect if he/she only uses the Firenock for a hunting situation such as described above? Quote: By the way, if you have not seen Firenock action in salthinger, you owe it to yourself to see it. www.firenock.com/videos.html That is a great video! ..... I am sure that Team Muzzy would love this Nock Quote: As for magnet placement, Firenock is very specific; it is not just 3/4 of an inch away. It is 3/4 of an inch from the center of the arrow shaft to the bottom of the magnet. The magnet is 1/8" thick and the usual arrow is 0.246" in ID or 0.320" OD which mean the surface of the shaft to the top of the magnet is only about 12-13 mm of 3/8 of an inch. If that distance is not maintained, the constancy will suffer. We did keep the magnet centered and found that this was not an issue at all as to finding alternatives for locations other than those described in the literature. I have one question about this though. Am I correct that you can double stack the batteries (if there is room) to get an bit more distance over the standard 3/4"? Quote: Have fun, and smudge some blood on the nock Unfortunately I will not have the Firenocks with which to do this ..... until I pick some up I have given three of the packs to our field testers that are hunting this coming Saturday. I am looking to extend this test onto the field side as we do with our broadhead tests and hopefully we will finish out the 3 month season without a hitch I also want to thank you for including a complete Firenock kit for our members Raffle which I will now post. I normally wont offer test products to members until we have concrete proof of their effectiveness but after our preliminary tests.....I have no concern as to what I am offering as it relates to quality at this time Author Topic: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 (Read 327 times) osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 Firenock bow fishing adaptor « Reply #10 on Sept 13, 2007, 8:53pm » Firenock will be shortly launch it Bow-fishing adaptor. As a matter of fact it world premier it at bowcountry.com. I am not sure Muzzy would like us since we now make a better nock adaptor for the fiberglass arrow, and it works perfectly with Firenock v2.0s the following are what we have posted in bowcountry.com Firenock has chosen BOWCOUNTRY.com to show off its Bow Fishing adaptor. It is indeed a world premier. Bowcountry.com not only get the photos of the piece but the actual 3D transparent diagram. No other board will have this for a while until someone link it to others. It is not even on Firenock.com yet. This board had been very nice to Firenock, may I add. Firenock item #FNLN94, (a.k.a Bowfishing adaptor) is IEC 529 IPX8 and 46 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) compliant. To be IPX8 compliant: "water proof machine means a totally enclosed machine so constructed that a stream of water from a hose with a nozzle one inch in diameter that delivers at least 65 gallons per minute can be played on the machine from any direction from a distance of about 10 feet for a period of not less than 5 minutes without leakage". We do better than that may I proudly say. How about stuck in shark or stingray and being bang against the boat while under salt water . To be frank, that Firenock v1.5 with homemade adaptor is quite awesome (Sam wood's set up), but wait till you see the adaptor below! How about up to 4 atmosphere pressure test? Or submerge test for 30 days in 3 Meter of salt water. The bow-fishing adaptor survived both with Firenock v2.0s. The production model adaptor is going to be RED, Firenock red! And with the MIL-spec O-ring. Base on calculation, it should be good enough for Mako-shark hunting and then you need to be ready for an aerial show. Even it is swim under 30ft, it should still be OK. With a little silicone water proof gel on the O-ring, we believe it may be able to reach 20 Meters (66 ft) under water with no issue. That need to be tested in the field to further proof the calculation. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #11 on Sept 13, 2007, 8:59pm » I must say....you are the type of guy who would be well suited to share a drink with Markus from German Kinetics You two are very anal about your products ..... thank goodness. Funny how you found your way here to be honest. Most manufactures run from me but you actively tried to find me! That says alot right there , in my book Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged red Junior Member member is offline Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 224 Location: Ormond Beach Florida Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #12 on Sept 13, 2007, 9:30pm » Forgive me if this question has been asked before, but given that the speed of light is faster than the speed of sound (and it is possible for a deer to string jump), do you think there is any danger of a "light jump"? Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Mathews Switchback 70 lb Copper John DN2 Supreme Muzzy Zero effect Stealth stabilizer Winners Choice Torque Less Grip STS camo Maxima Hunters/Blazed Silver Flames osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #13 on Sept 13, 2007, 10:01pm » that is no doubt that light is fast. That is why controlling the light is so critical. The moment the light is on (when the string is pressing the bow in case of lumanock, or passing the magnet, in case of the Firenock). From that point onwards, there is a light source. What a lighted nock designer need to think is how to only let the archer see the nock and not the game. That is why Firenock use a 35 degree spread Focus Beam LED so only the archer can really see the light. Unlike other lighted nock which gives out a HUGE halo, especially before sun up and after sun down, it is just too much of a warning sign when a HUGE light with a BIG halo light up and move towards the game. Light is faster than arrow, and that is so true and need to be address in a lighted nock. I believe that Firenock address that perfectly. Like one post I did a while back: I'm wondering about this. Does it mean that if say another were maybe 60 yds away and say nearly even with the nock or maybe at a 45% angle, they wouldn't be able to see the light? That is correct. With a very narrow beam light, nearly all the energy is directed backwards. Any angle that is over say 17.5 degree off will not be EASILY visible. It is good and bad. I have been close to a light at ground level and not be able to see it. While I can see it up to 55 yards when I am directly behind it. Why this design? There is only so much light that a 3.3V 25 mAh battery can give out. The light energy needs to use to the best of what it is intend to do. The side way light is actually very distracting. A large halo is only good for showing to your friends, not ideal for long distance and confirm shot placement. i.e. it is like the difference between a butcher knife compare to a surgeons' scruple. That is another benefit. You can shot at a deer with a full camo arrow; you can miss and be ready to shot a second time. The 2 basic fundamental design that Firenock use are: 1) Firenock uses a red led and deer is colorblind, they cannot see red well. 2) The light is very narrow focus so you should be the only one who should see it from where it was fired, the deer will not (No halo like the others) Does that help explain why? Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #14 on Yesterday at 5:05am » That explains why I couldn't see the arrow as well from above the shot. Rayzortech and I stood above the shot at one point and I was able to see the arrow as it went to the target but the nock wasn't visible till it was well past me....perhaps 40 yards out. With it being a sunny day and also being color blind , I assumed it was the conditions that caused this. Very well thought out when you designed the nock to deter light in this way. « Last Edit: Yesterday at 5:06am by BT » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged shaman Board Regular member is offline Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 721 Location: Maine, USA Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #15 on Yesterday at 7:01am » Lumenok worked on my buck last year at 17yds. I dont think he had any forewarning as he did not jump the string or even flinch. Risk probably depends on circumstance as to if the deer will see the light. On Lumenok, I don't like the wire sticking out. I don't like that the shock of hitting the ground can turn it off. To be fair, I have not tried the Firenok. But was considering them this year. Concerns are: Adding additional stick on items (WB adapter) seems a risk. I can see attaching a magnet to the riser, but when you introduce another 'hanger-on' to your bow then it is another thing to snare on a branch or to have the tape fail when you are not paying attention and have to buy another adapter and magnet. « Last Edit: Yesterday at 7:05am by shaman » Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged 2006 PSE Diablo - 26"/ 68# | VBG Triangle | WB DX QS TR One Piece Quiver | 7" Doinker Multi-Rod | SVL Modules HD | Scott Wildcat Box Family Archery / Diablo Owners / Maine Support osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #16 on Yesterday at 7:34am » I agree that the whisker biscuit adaptor is another thing one may need to add to the bow to use Firenock perfectly. And if you do not install it carefully, it will fall off. I have one confirm happening already. To be fair, the double sided tape that Firenock use is the best that money can buy. (3M VHB 2925 0.4"X0.75" or 0.3 sq. in (@90lb per sq in) = 27lbs holding power), that's said, the care to put it on is what makes and breaks the set up. Denature alcohol clean up, and without touching the contact surface with ones' finger (oil is BAD) is critical. Someone once asked me why I did not just screw it on? I tried and the result is less than perfect. And if one look closed at the whisker biscuit, it is made of composite nylon, and screwing it on is not ideal. With the die cut 3M VHB tape, with 27 lbs of holding power and vibration damping ability. Who can ask for more? As for having branches snagging off the whisker biscuit adaptor; I think one should be asking is how? The chance that the arrow rest, sight would be damaged will be way before the adaptor be touched. The adaptor is situated between the bow and the string, not to mention it should be nested between the riser and the arrow rest. It is not impossible, but it going to be difficult. Last, nothing in life comes for free. As a matte of fact, one can put the magnet on the riser just under the arrow path. That's said, if the distance is not within that 3/8" from the top of the magnet to the outside of a standard size carbon arrow shaft, the reliability may not be 100%. The more control we have with the variables the better the intended outcome. 100% reliability is not free, some work and effort is needed. Not just paying for the package as most had found out. As I have told many of my customers, if they really do not care if the light sometime come on or not, Firenock is not for them for it is just a little more involved and so is its price. There are cheaper and less involved alternatives. Isn't that great that you now have choices on the level of equipment you want, decide and be answered with products. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged BT Administrator member is offline www.reapersblade.net Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 9,541 Location: NY Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #17 on Yesterday at 11:01am » Yesterday at 7:01am, shaman wrote: Concerns are: Adding additional stick on items (WB adapter) seems a risk. I can see attaching a magnet to the riser, but when you introduce another 'hanger-on' to your bow then it is another thing to snare on a branch or to have the tape fail when you are not paying attention and have to buy another adapter and magnet. To be honest , we found that the riser was a great mount due to the fact that our set up allowed for clearance within the guidelines for installation. That being said .... I have the mounting bracket in front of me right now and it is pretty sturdy. I am like you Shaman in as much as I dont like attachments either but this bracket isn't some floppy half assed make shift piece. I would trust it Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged shaman Board Regular member is offline Joined: Mar 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 721 Location: Maine, USA Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #18 on Yesterday at 12:09pm » How about a clamp? You can fit tines between the bristles with no negative impact to the biscuit itself. That would fasten is solidly to the biscuit rim. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged 2006 PSE Diablo - 26"/ 68# | VBG Triangle | WB DX QS TR One Piece Quiver | 7" Doinker Multi-Rod | SVL Modules HD | Scott Wildcat Box Family Archery / Diablo Owners / Maine Support osomemac New Member member is online Joined: Sept 2006 Posts: 7 Re: FIRENOCK - TEST - PHASE #1 « Reply #19 on Yesterday at 3:35pm » A Clamp is definitely not a bad idea, except cost and complexity. A balance is what we have come up with as of now. What we may do is make the material thinner. Right now we use 1.2 mm surgical grade stainless, press formed and then black anodized. Do anyone know how involve and tough that process really is? Especially if you want it not be be shiny. We have to rough up the surface first so no continuous flat surface is present before it got dipped. This is one tough bracket. Do not take my word for it. Try bending one with a Wisegrip. That can be done, but that takes tons of effort. As for the "L" bracket (aka Trophy Taker Adaptor), we took a totally different approach. It is built with 7000 series aluminum and then black anodized. The process may be simply to some, but getting it to be 13 grains at weight and strong is another story. I believe we did both I sure hope you try them.